Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: How responsible are Jonathon and Andrew for Tara's death?
I have a debate-y question:
How responsible are Jonathon and Andrew for what happened to Tara?
Please say as much or as little as you'd like and as many times as you'd like (but remember, this is my topic and I'll feel all bad if nobody says anything, so please say SOMETHING, dang it.) _________________
I'll make a sig soon. Or I'll forget about it. Or I'll forget about it and then remember and make it. Or I'll forget about it, then remember, then forget again before I make it.
Hmmm... tricky one. I'd say definitely not as much as Warren, but they do have some part to play, especially since Warren would have been much easier to defeat in the first place if Jonathan and Andrew hadn't been there too. I kinda think that just by teaming up with Warren they were responsible, because he was the one that really was bad. I think the other two were just a bit... misled.
So, yeah, they were a bit. But Andrew at least works it off by cooking for the scoobies. You can't be mad at Andrew. He's just so darn cute. _________________ Danger? Ha! I laugh in the face of danger...
Then I hide until it goes away. - Xander
I think... Jonathon isn't that responsible. Partly I think that because he actually DID take responsibility (more than the other two, anyway). Andrew, I kinda think is more responsible (but the cooking for the scoobies does help his record, I've got to agree).
Overall, you've got to say the Warrem is primarily responible- he was holding the stupid gun! But there's no way you can say that the other two are absolutely guilt free either. _________________
I think they are both just as responsible as Warren. They were his partners in crime! However, they both ended up trying to redeem themselves and showing remorse, unlike Warren, so that counts for something. In a court of law, that might get them a reduced sentence, but they would still both be found guilty and serve time, as it should be IMHO. _________________ Occasionally I am callous and strange.
There is a difference between the crimes they partnered with, and Warren grabbing a gun and shooting. The latter is completely and only Warren's responsibility. For e.g. the robbery that led to Andrew's and Jonathan's arrest, they were all responsible. _________________ Listening to you I get the music
Gazing at you I get the heat
Following you I climb the mountain
I get excitement at your feet!
That's a good point, Ild. I forgot that it was really just Warren and his gun that showed up at the house. Andrew and Jonathan didn't even know about that, so I guess they aren't responsible for Tara's death at all. However, they are just as guilty as Warren in all the crimes they perpetrated together. _________________ Occasionally I am callous and strange.
There is a difference between the crimes they partnered with, and Warren grabbing a gun and shooting. The latter is completely and only Warren's responsibility. For e.g. the robbery that led to Andrew's and Jonathan's arrest, they were all responsible.
I agree. Certainly, A and J contributed to the decline of Warren but regardless they are not reponsible for Warrens actions alone.
There is a trend, at least in the US, to make excuses for everyone that does something wrong. He had a bad childhood, or, he was economically challenged. Seems we want to blame everyone and everything except the person who actually committed the act. B.S. I say.
Short of mind-control he who does the act is responsible. _________________
There is a difference between the crimes they partnered with, and Warren grabbing a gun and shooting. The latter is completely and only Warren's responsibility. For e.g. the robbery that led to Andrew's and Jonathan's arrest, they were all responsible.
That is exactly what I thought when I read this topic. Andrew and Jonathan didn't MAKE Warren take a gun to Buffy's house, that was entirely his own doing. The only crimes that the two of them are also responsible for are the ones they committed together. Not Tara's death. _________________ "Your father was captain of a Starship for 12 minutes. He saved 800 lives - I dare you to do better."
great topic
its such an interesting question. especially because of the term 'responsible', it has so many implications
some thoughts, mostly about the trio in general though!
- yes warren picked up the gun and shot tara. he did it out of anger and humiliation after buffy stomped on his balls.
- warren had massive influence over johnathon and andrew and we saw it grow as season 6 went on. J and A vetoed Warren several times, and expressed concern over the more evil aspects of being an evil trio, but not always. For example, katrina. even though they had never thought of their intent toward katrina as 'rape' it doesn't make it any less so. They were all implicated in killing Katrina, in what was techinically an 'accident' but J and A didn't leave the gang or stand up to warren even after her death. instead they crossed the line, inching ever closer to the possibility of killing the slayer.
- all three were deeply insecure with differing grasp on reality. but all had a modicum of freewill. warren was persuasive, and the leaderless will always need an icon, and so it was. andrew summoned demons to attack the school play, and we dont know what happened that day, but his intent can only have been carnage. johnathon was the least evil of the three i reckon, his major spellmaking effort in superstar was victimless in its intent, the demony damage was not part of his plan.
- there is a lot we dont know about how the trio got together
- i think andrew was more evil than johnathon, precisely because andrew has never demonstrated that he could take any responsibility for anything, regardless of which side he was on. his easy shift from evil to good showed what a weak and unmoored human he really was. i dont think that makes him super evil like warren, full of intent and manipulation and hatred, but being so willing to do evil to ingratiate himself to another, is pretty bloody evil. but i still love him alot.
- on the day before the shooting, andrew and warren betrayed johnathon. if warren had told andrew to shoot buffy, or tara, or anyone, i really think he would have. i dont think johnathon would have. sure warren deliberately separated the alliance between J and A because it was an obstacle, but he didnt use any magics. i think warren chose andrew over johnathon because he had more potential.
- so warren did the shooting, and the others didnt even know about it. but the shooting wouldn't have happened if johnathon hadn't betrayed warren's balls to buffy. johnathon of his own free will and individual choice undermined warren to save buffy. andrew on the other had did no such thing. so i think andrew is more responsible for taras death, johnathon a little bit responsible but much less.
- mathematically it looks like this
TMcL-RIP= w(0.75) + a(0.2) + j(.05)
QED _________________ mmm
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
