beagle
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Did Angel Pull A Jasmine On Conner?At the end of season four, when Angel had Conner's memory erased and put him in a happy, healthy family life did Angel effectively do the same thing to Conner that Jasmine tried to do to everyone?
I mean Angel didn't technically take away his free will but he did substitute Conner's pain for happiness with Conner having no say in the matter.
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Ant4buffy
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I say yes. He was totally screwed up was our little Connor and he was hurting others. If Angel had asked Connor if he would like his memories to be changed who knows what he would have said but I think it was the right thing to do. It made Connor a better person and even when he found out about what he used to be he was still a good guy.
Also - his acting was much better when he appeared in Season 5 and if Angel hadn't "written" him out of the series he would have still been a cast regular. Personally I disliked Connor in Season 4.
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insaneinthebasement
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It was wrong, very wrong. But I would have done the same because Connor was annoying and it meant he wasn't in season 5 much.
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ildjarn
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Yes. He didn't take away Connor's free will. He was still free to make his own future, albeit with a different past. Jasmine took away the option of making your own future.
EDIT: The poll asks a totally different question than the subject.
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beagle
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| ildjarn wrote: |
EDIT: The poll asks a totally different question than the subject. |
Yes, I noticed that. Not well written at all. thanks for reinforcing my sense of inadequacy.. haha
and yes your initial point wasn't bad either. hadn't put that spin on it but it certainly mitigates angels action when compared to jasmine's.
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greengirl00
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Yes, I think that that would be what Connor would have wanted for himself, plus he was hurting people, so think of it like the prison sentence he would have got for wandering around witha bomb, only happy. I figure Connor came off a lot better than he would have if Angel had left it.
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beagle
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| greengirl00 wrote: | | I figure Connor came off a lot better than he would have if Angel had left it. |
But wouldn't everyone have been better off in the Jasmine, eternal bliss world? I mean everyone was so happy and no hate.
Of course, there was that real chance of the world turned into some grey, lifeless wasteland like on Jasmine's previous world.
That brings something up. Was Jasmine's goal to turn earth like that other place or didn't she say something about learning from that and actually having benevolent plans for earth????
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ildjarn
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Was Jasmine's previous world ever anything else than a gray wasteland?
Stephenie Meyer's book 'The host' discusses a similar subject, with the souls bringing peace, and humans fighting it, because it'd mean losing the thing that made people human.
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greengirl00
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| beagle wrote: | | greengirl00 wrote: | | I figure Connor came off a lot better than he would have if Angel had left it. |
But wouldn't everyone have been better off in the Jasmine, eternal bliss world? I mean everyone was so happy and no hate.
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I guess I figured her eating people made it a world where everyone wasn't better off.... =D
Plus, I think it's different, because Connor was still Connor, just happier. Or something. Although, I suppose that you could argue he was a totally different person because he had different memories. And Jasmine didn't change everyone, just made them think they loved her...
Uh, this is confusing. I think I might stay in my black and white world where eating peolpe makes her bad. It's a whole lot simpler in here, I can tell ya...
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beagle
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Yes, Greenie, oh yes.
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Wynter
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Wow, this is a great question! And some awesome debate going on, all great points from everyone.
I'm on the side of the fence that says Angel did the right thing, though. Just because Connor in S4 was such an unlikeable, self-destructive, arsey character, who was on this constant downward spiral, hurting people and not caring about the consequences. If he'd been left as that, things would've just gotten worse. Angel made a huge sacrifice giving up a life with his son, so his son could live normally and be happy, but it was the best option.
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Sunnydalehigh
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I voted yes. Connor was hurting people and there was minimal probability of him being brought back to the good side at that point. There's always hope (see Faith), but Connor would have taken a Herculean effort and Angel (and the audience) didn't have the time or patience for it then.
Re: Jasmine, I know some people who truly believe that ignorance is bliss. If Jasmine could have found a way for people to opt in or opt out of her spell, she could have peacefully coexisted with humans, at least until she ran out of cooperative people to eat.... Personally, I would opt out if given the choice, and not just because I might get eaten. I'd rather see the world as it is, faults and all, than how I wish it would be. Also, the Jasmine spell world was creepy and not how I would wish it to be anyway, but I guess if I was under the spell I would think otherwise, so....never mind that last point. 
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beagle
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Oh Sunnydale how I've missed your free thinking!
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dramagirl
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I put no, just on the basis that if my parents changed my memories, I would have some serious rage if I ever found out. But, I guess it was a very different kinda situation for Connor...
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HarFang
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I voted "It was wrong but I would have done the same", but the thing is, it's rather the opposite on both counts.
First, at that stage, what Angel did was probably the only way to save Connor (and his hostages too). Not only that, but he also gave him happiness, which was probably impossible in any other condition.
The best proof that Angel did right is that Connor's new life allows him to be balanced and mature enough that when he finally remembers, he actually understands.
And secondly, I think that I just couldn't let go of someone I loved as much as Angel loved his son.
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greengirl00
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That's an interesting take on it. I think you're probably right about that being the only way that Connor could be happy, but I'd never even thought about the fact that Connor could accept the truth when he found out. Hmm, food for thought =D
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Dosta
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Angel did the right thing he put some balance in Conners life...
Conner still had Freewill...
Jasmine took freewill away...
So yes i was for the best
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