How responsible are Jonathon and Andrew for Tara's death?

TwoToGo-Grave · How responsible are Jonathon and Andrew for Tara's death?

I have a debate-y question:
How responsible are Jonathon and Andrew for what happened to Tara?
Please say as much or as little as you'd like and as many times as you'd like (but remember, this is my topic and I'll feel all bad if nobody says anything, so please say SOMETHING, dang it.)

dramagirl

Hmmm... tricky one. I'd say definitely not as much as Warren, but they do have some part to play, especially since Warren would have been much easier to defeat in the first place if Jonathan and Andrew hadn't been there too. I kinda think that just by teaming up with Warren they were responsible, because he was the one that really was bad. I think the other two were just a bit... misled.

So, yeah, they were a bit. But Andrew at least works it off by cooking for the scoobies. You can't be mad at Andrew. He's just so darn cute.

greengirl00

I think... Jonathon isn't that responsible. Partly I think that because he actually DID take responsibility (more than the other two, anyway). Andrew, I kinda think is more responsible (but the cooking for the scoobies does help his record, I've got to agree).

Overall, you've got to say the Warrem is primarily responible- he was holding the stupid gun! But there's no way you can say that the other two are absolutely guilt free either.

Sunnydalehigh

I think they are both just as responsible as Warren. They were his partners in crime! However, they both ended up trying to redeem themselves and showing remorse, unlike Warren, so that counts for something. In a court of law, that might get them a reduced sentence, but they would still both be found guilty and serve time, as it should be IMHO.

ildjarn

There is a difference between the crimes they partnered with, and Warren grabbing a gun and shooting. The latter is completely and only Warren's responsibility. For e.g. the robbery that led to Andrew's and Jonathan's arrest, they were all responsible.

Sunnydalehigh

That's a good point, Ild. I forgot that it was really just Warren and his gun that showed up at the house. Andrew and Jonathan didn't even know about that, so I guess they aren't responsible for Tara's death at all. However, they are just as guilty as Warren in all the crimes they perpetrated together.

beagle

Wynter

cardboardy

great topic
its such an interesting question. especially because of the term 'responsible', it has so many implications

some thoughts, mostly about the trio in general though!

- yes warren picked up the gun and shot tara. he did it out of anger and humiliation after buffy stomped on his balls.

- warren had massive influence over johnathon and andrew and we saw it grow as season 6 went on. J and A vetoed Warren several times, and expressed concern over the more evil aspects of being an evil trio, but not always. For example, katrina. even though they had never thought of their intent toward katrina as 'rape' it doesn't make it any less so. They were all implicated in killing Katrina, in what was techinically an 'accident' but J and A didn't leave the gang or stand up to warren even after her death. instead they crossed the line, inching ever closer to the possibility of killing the slayer.

- all three were deeply insecure with differing grasp on reality. but all had a modicum of freewill. warren was persuasive, and the leaderless will always need an icon, and so it was. andrew summoned demons to attack the school play, and we dont know what happened that day, but his intent can only have been carnage. johnathon was the least evil of the three i reckon, his major spellmaking effort in superstar was victimless in its intent, the demony damage was not part of his plan.

- there is a lot we dont know about how the trio got together

- i think andrew was more evil than johnathon, precisely because andrew has never demonstrated that he could take any responsibility for anything, regardless of which side he was on. his easy shift from evil to good showed what a weak and unmoored human he really was. i dont think that makes him super evil like warren, full of intent and manipulation and hatred, but being so willing to do evil to ingratiate himself to another, is pretty bloody evil. but i still love him alot.

- on the day before the shooting, andrew and warren betrayed johnathon. if warren had told andrew to shoot buffy, or tara, or anyone, i really think he would have. i dont think johnathon would have. sure warren deliberately separated the alliance between J and A because it was an obstacle, but he didnt use any magics. i think warren chose andrew over johnathon because he had more potential.

- so warren did the shooting, and the others didnt even know about it. but the shooting wouldn't have happened if johnathon hadn't betrayed warren's balls to buffy. johnathon of his own free will and individual choice undermined warren to save buffy. andrew on the other had did no such thing. so i think andrew is more responsible for taras death, johnathon a little bit responsible but much less.

- mathematically it looks like this
TMcL-RIP= w(0.75) + a(0.2) + j(.05)
QED

Sunnydalehigh

Wynter

ildjarn

The shooting wouldn't have happened if Buffy hadn't humiliated Warren. Would you say Buffy is partially responsible for Tara's death?

I stay with my original conclusion that Warren, and only Warren, is responsible for Tara's death.

(And fate. Don't forget fate).

On the subject of the death of Katrina, while they're not all responsible for her death, they're all responsible for hiding it.

I don't think Andrew is evil, he just has terrible poor judgement, is extremely naive, but those things don't make someone evil. It does lead to evil actions though.

beagle

TwoToGo-Grave

This sounds like a trio like discussion, which is awesome and fitting, since it's about the trio.

insaneinthebasement

This discussion is good. And tricky, because how far do you go with the responsibility? Andrew? Jonathon? Buffy? Warren's Mum? Warren's ancestors who emigrated to America in the first place? Tara's ancestors maybe? The monkeys who evolved into Warren and Tara? It get's ridiculous, and coming up with a mathematical equation for it all would be too complex.
Personally I am in the team that it's completely Warren's fault.

beagle

Yes that would be TMcL-RIP= w

cardboardy

sorry guys im in a mad rush but i just have to say that in my above post im talking more about ethics than physics.

as in the question of the link between the trios sequence of activites and taras death, not every possible connection to the event.

ethically warren was not alone in that backyard, even if he was a lone gunman

loving this discussion, will post more when i surface again
x

beagle

Now, I would buy that if they helped him plan it, maybe gave him the gun when they knew what he was going to do with it or brainwashed him or something.
If anything you could say they facilitated him but that makes them responsible for making him a worse person, not killing Tara.

Hey a good sidebar is, is warren even guilty of murder at all? I mean, maybe manslaughter? I mean he didn't mean to kill Tara, that was a accident.

Sunnydalehigh

Yes, Warren is guilty of murder. For it to be murder instead of manslaughter, there has to be forethought (planning) and intent, both of which he had for Buffy. Just because he didn't kill his target and accidentally killed someone else doesn't let him off the hook.

ildjarn

Tara's death is homicide, not murder. There is a legal difference, as far as I know.

TwoToGo-Grave

ildjarn

I just found out that the technical term for Warren's killing of Tara is 'murder in the second degree'. See the example at http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html . And I also found out that homicide is a wider category than murder (murder is a subset of homicide, as is manslaughter: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cas...s/18/parts/i/chapters/51/toc.html). So I was right about them not being the same legally, but for a wrong reason. I was mixing up manslaughter and homicide.

TwoToGo-Grave

Awesome. Way to go with the research. Smile

Cordi

Not at all. They had no knowledge of Warren's gun-happy plans nor did they participate.