If Angelus got a brain-chip would he change over time?
If Angelus got a chip in his head like Spike did would he become less evil over time like Spike or change at all from the regular Angelus? If so, in what way? I look forward to hearing your opinions on this matter of Angelus-chipage!
SeeingBlue
I'd say yes. Spike was pretty evil when he first came into the picture, but eventually he had to give in to the fact that he wouldn't be able to survive if he was evil with the chip. The same would probably happen with Angelus.
Rogue-Demon Hunter
So do you think Angelus would become pretty similar in personality to Angel or do you think he'd still be pretty Angelus-esque except with the helping of the helpless?
beagle
I don't believe Angelus would change at all. I believe Spike was unique as a vampire in that he had the capacity to love even without the chip. He loved Drusilla. Angelus was just pure, nasty evil and lacked the capacity to love in my opinion.
That coming from the BAngle guy that I am.
Rogue-Demon Hunter
Even if he discovered like Spike did that he could only hurt demons? Say he didn't become less evil, do you think he might change in personality at all from how he is to some other direction besides good? How do you think he'd get his kicks if he couldn't hurt and torture people which is one of his favorite things to do? Thanks for the responses fellow Scoobies! Or is it rather Angel's Avengers or Big Bads?
SeeingBlue
Angelus would probably still be Angelus. Spike wasn't ever really nice until he actually got a soul. I feel like Angelus might actually make demons do the hurting for him, like henchmen. He was too evil to just convert totally to the Scooby side.
cardboardy
oooh nice one.
its hard to know, i guess it comes down to the question of who is the more evil: spike or angelus.
I tend to think angelus was more evil, simply because he had been at it for longer.
i think spike's love for drusilla was greater than angelus' love for darla.
also, evil spike had tea and marshmellows and a heart2heart with joyce while totally evil, and its hard to imagine angelus doing same.
i think spike was the better man. if angelus had a chip instead of a soul i really dont imagine him falling in with the humans and getting domesticated. i imagine him terrorising other demons with brute strength, and standing over them and forcing them to do his bidding. Spike could have been chips ahoy and made the switch to butcher blood but stayed evil. but he didn't. so yeah, pass the mountain dew.
beagle
I like Cardy's point, (as I so often do), that Spike wasn't good when he had the chip, just opportunistic. He showed again and again that he would kill if he just could.
But no, I don't think having a chip would cause Angelus to "soften". Probably just make him meaner. Like an impotent sex offender.
Hmm, I wonder if Spike's chip was a metaphor for impotent sex offenders. Well, it is now, at least to me.
ildjarn
beagle wrote:
Hmm, I wonder if Spike's chip was a metaphor for impotent sex offenders. Well, it is now, at least to me.
Of course it is. Don't you remember the Spike and Willow scene? (Damn, can't remember the episode, but it's the one where they're sitting on the bed, shortly after Spike escaped the Initiative).
insaneinthebasement
beagle wrote:
Spike wasn't good when he had the chip, just opportunistic. He showed again and again that he would kill if he just could.
Not in Crush.
Also when they were both evil, Angelus tried to end the world while Spike teamed up with Buffy to save it.
I don't think Angelus would have changed, I think he was cunning enough to find other ways to get his evil deeds done.
Spike was never really that nice until he got a soul, it's true. But just because he couldn't hurt people didn't mean he had to save them, he didn't have to help, he didnt have to comfort, he didn't have to care for Dawn, he didn't have to make friends but he did. Helping, comforting, caring and making friends are not really evil deeds, and I just can't see Angelus doing them no matter how incapacitated he is.
I think Beagle's right that it would probably make him meaner. I remember it being said, by Giles I think, that Angelus hated anything that made him feel more human, well a chip would be one of those things.
beagle
In my mind Spike was only nice to Buffy, Dawn, anyone when he wanted something from them. He was nice to Buffy because he loved and wanted her. Not because he was nice. maybe
DarthRosenberg
"also, evil spike had tea and marshmellows and a heart2heart with joyce while totally evil, and its hard to imagine angelus doing same."
EXACTLY!!!! I was thinking the same thing!
cardboardy
and watching 'the initiative' the other night, the episode where spike goes to attack willow in her dorm only to discover he couldn't get his bump on. spike seriously comforts a distraught willow, reassuring her that he'd bite her in a heartbeat if he could.
Spike's very attuned to human emotions. so is angelus, but but angelus is mostly fixated on using his perceptions of human emotion to enhance his capacity to do evil and make people go crazy. other hand, spike's attunement is more effulgent, more affected by peoples sadness.
In Something Blue: "can't you people see she's hanging on by a thread?"
In Spike's early days of the chip he seeks help from buffy, who he hates, and her friends. why? it almost seems as if spike is less concerned that he cant kill and maim (which i imagine would drive angelus into a sadistic rage) than he is about getting blood and smokes. Spike seeks help from people he hates, (out of all the demons and creatures that no doubt he could negotiate with), which is what makes chippy spike so pathetic. he's just not evil enough.
insaneinthebasement
cardboardy wrote:
Spike's very attuned to human emotions. so is angelus, but but angelus is mostly fixated on using his perceptions of human emotion to enhance his capacity to do evil and make people go crazy. other hand, spike's attunement is more effulgent, more affected by peoples sadness.
Yeah definitely, they're both very perceptive.
You know how by season 7, Xander was labeled as the one that sees everything, well I think Spike did as well. For someone on the edges of the Scooby gang, Spike really knew all the dimensions of all their relationships. And he always claimed not to care when those relationships were falling apart, but he'd always help out anyway (in Family, for example).
Angelus seemed to see the same links between people, but he would use that knowledge to trick and exploit people and turn them against each other, like when he went evil in Angel. Just look at the way he tormented Buffy when he first lost his soul, he doesn't need violence to hurt people.
Spike could do the same if he wanted to. In The Yoko Factor, he knew exactly what to say to them all to split them up, just usually he would choose not to.
ildjarn
Personally, I think Angelus is truly evil, and Spike is more a Bart Simpson evil: evil because it's fun and not because of the evilness itself.
insaneinthebasement
ildjarn wrote:
Personally, I think Angelus is truly evil, and Spike is more a Bart Simpson evil: evil because it's fun and not because of the evilness itself.
Hahaha, yep, I think that's putting it pretty well.
TwoToGo-Grave
Spike seems amoral. He doesn't care about what's right or wrong, but not interested just in doing evil. He seems to just do whatever he wants to, no matter who it helps or hurts, just looking to have fun and to survive (hence helping the Scoobies). Angel is pure evil, wanting only to cause pain to others. That would never change, whether with a chip or not. Though, this question is at the root of why the Initiative created a 'behavior modification chip' to begin with, right? To see if losing the capacity to kill would alter how demons behave? I'm assuming that it would never change a demon to have one, only restrict them. Okay, so those are my thoughts on the matter; I hope that they make at least a little sense.
greengirl00
ildjarn wrote:
Personally, I think Angelus is truly evil, and Spike is more a Bart Simpson evil: evil because it's fun and not because of the evilness itself.
Okay, after reading this whole topic (I love an argumnet, who doesn't?) I would have to say that is an excellent way of putting it. I really come down on the side of Spike here. I think he was never really as mean as Angelus anyway, as illustrated by the whole tea and marshmallows thing... and that whole thing in family. He chose to help Tara out. None of the others had even thought of it, so he wouldn't have lost out on getting on Buffy's good side. The only thing that I can think is that he did out of sympathy. Sure, Buffy thought it was a nice thing to have done, but it didn't seem to me like that was why he did it.
Another thing is Liam seemed to be rather more evil (as humans go) than William. And although this isn't the only thing involved in a vampire's personality, it'd be silly to say it had no impact.
So, anyway, after all that ranting, I hope it's at least vaguely clear that I think Spike is pretty unique, and that Angelus is just plain mean. (though I'm not judging Angel, hehe)
I was thinking the same thing!